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 Post subject: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:47 pm 
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I thought this was pretty straight, to the point and worth a re-post....


Quote:
The 10-10-10 Financial Survival Plan

"...What does this have to do with the value of gold? Gold’s value remains constant. But as the currency in which gold is denominated fluctuates, the price of gold changes. So what appears to be fluctuation in the value of gold is really nothing more than fluctuation in the currency. Since the paper currency is backed by nothing, it is not real money like gold is. It is basically a promissory note – an I.O.U.

To demonstrate the fact that gold’s value doesn’t change, consider this: The price of a new three bedroom home in the United States today is about $200,000, or 200 ounces of gold. 100 years ago a similar new home would have cost $5,000 – about 200 ounces of gold at that time. A skilled stonemason makes about $1,000 per week today – the cost of an ounce of gold. In 1776 he made about $20 per week – the cost of an ounce of gold at that time. And in Jesus’ time the same skilled laborer made the equivalent in silver of one ounce of gold for one week’s labor.

What this means is that, while gold bullion is a good hedge against inflation, it is not necessarily a good investment. This is best illustrated by an example. Let’s say you have $10,000 in cash, and you believe that gold is going to go to $2,000 in a certain period of time. If that happens, considering the inverse relationship of gold and the US Dollar, we can expect that the dollar will lose 50% of its value. You can do one of three things with the $10,000:

1) Hide the cash under your mattress or put it in the bank. You’ll make about 1% at the bank ($100), so the results will be pretty much the same.

2) Buy bullion gold with the money.

3) Buy investment grade gold.

The probable results of these three courses of action are:

1) Your $10,000 will still be $10,000, but due to inflation the loss of purchasing power of the dollar will mean that you will only be able to buy $5,000 worth of today’s goods or services.

2) Your bullion will be worth $20,000, but due to inflation the loss of purchasing power of the dollar will mean that you will only be able to buy $10,000 worth of today’s goods or services. You broke even. Buying the bullion was a good idea – it was a good hedge (insurance) against inflation – but it was not a good investment, because it did not increase in value.

3)If you put the $10,000 in investment grade gold, it could be worth anywhere from $30,000 to $50,000 or higher, depending on how long it took for gold to hit $2,000.

“All right,” you’re asking, “what is ‘investment grade gold’?” This is gold that has more than the intrinsic value of its gold content. It is gold that has the extrinsic value of rarity. We are talking about rare gold coins. For many centuries, in turbulent economic times, investors have turned to rare gold coins as a way to both preserve and grow wealth in a small, portable manner that is simply not possible with gold bullion..."



one up for the numismatists


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:18 am 
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That is the marketing message of all those gold companies that make you great deals on raw bullion to pull you in and
then try and sell you overpriced numismatics. They would have to be exaggerating their rarity as I can hear
dozens of other phone solicitors in the background selling the same coins.
They tell me things like there are only 4 left...ooops now only 2.

I do have numismatic gold, some mostly inherited. I also have numismatic silver. Tracking those values during the
past year when things looked most like we were going to a depression, their premiums went down quite a bit.
In tough times, folks will probably just want or be able to buy the basics. In gold/silver, that would be
raw bullion. If you are really wanting to cash coins in and in a hurry, or trade them for goods, you want
something that is of easily and commonly determined value.

I like raw bullion coins/bars etc as I know what to pay for them and I know what to sell them for.

My numismatics are worth less now than when gold was at $850.

You need to be a salesman to make money on numis. I guess I am just a trader.

I do believe in having some "numismatic" bullion that always gets attention for rarity or beauty.
The odd sized Kilo and 50 oz JM bars, Engelhard rounds etc. I like those for their generally recognized
premiums (see what Prospectors sell for vs. generic silver rounds).


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:59 pm 
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Quote:
Either way, you've definitely made me think about putting a percentage of my money into investment grade coins - thanks.


You're velcome... It makes sense to me too. If you are trying to retain your wealth, bullion is pretty crucial but if you are trying to "make money", the investment grade bullion is the safest bet...even if hyperDeflation wins the battle [or in a SHTF scenario] , you will still have the bullion weight value of the coin...if things come up roses you can resell for the extrinsic value... I will buy a few Panda "P" sets...I wonder if BD has considered expanding to include them...

this is a pretty good video as well...yea when all is said and done, I think it is trying to "sell" something, but these guys name names and explain "leveraging" fairly well... learning something new is what it is all about...


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:45 pm 
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I really can't see anyone paying a premium because of how rare a coin is in really bad times. I can see it selling for its bullion content value real easy but if it is so rare no one has seen it they probally won't buy it at any price because the dont know what it is.To have value people must reconize it as valuable.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:20 am 
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torpedoman wrote:
I really can't see anyone paying a premium because of how rare a coin is in really bad times. I can see it selling for its bullion content value real easy but if it is so rare no one has seen it they probally won't buy it at any price because the dont know what it is.To have value people must reconize it as valuable.


I think it really depends on what you want. In normal times, rare coins can bring great profit. Along with that profit comes great risk. You lose some, you gain some. but, I mostly agree with torpedo, in hard times when most PM owners start using, rare coins are worth what all the rest of the coins are worth. Don't count on high premiums when the SHTF.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Quote:
...in hard times when most PM owners start using, rare coins are worth what all the rest of the coins are worth. Don't count on high premiums when the SHTF.


Probably very true...but in good times the scratched up, non graded bullion coin will still be worth whatever the bullion price is....and that is still just enough to cover its intrinsic value...

A million years ago [shortly after Al Gore and I invented Global Warming but before he and I invented the Internet :D ] a feller at an investment firm [Interstate Johnson Lane] told me that the best buy in the PM market was older silver coins (40-90%). His argument at the time was they could only lose half their value (when you could get $1000 worth for $2000)...if the market fell out I would still have $1000...*sigh* ...who'd have thunk?

In the same type of scenario (only reversed), the Chinese economy is bound to lead the world out of Global recession. For the most part they have stuck to sound economic principals and fundamentals...I would be more than happy in 5-10yrs to sell them back their "P" Gold Bullion Pandas at a Premium...and if the world goes to "hell in a hand basket", I will still have something to barter with...better than a worthless GG stock certificate or [insert any stock symbol here]

And speaking of that, the video link I posted eralier, I think, has expired, so I will name the names they had called out as "good" and "leveraged" buys...

TGLDX
UNWPX
USERX

GG
ABX
KGC
GRS

Good luck to all


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:43 pm 
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Quote:
So, at least for cars, the "gold always has the same value" theory doesn't hold.


I'd have to agree....but right now we are living through some pretty turbulent times. I guess if this theory were accurate on all products and services, we are seeing two possible things, artificial manipulation of vehicle prices [which we know are subsidized] or a bubble in the metals market...or maybe a combination of both...

Looking at where the DOW is now compared to 10 Years ago [approximately even] it makes one wonder if we won't see $280 an Oz again...


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:26 am 
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Quote:
I was thinking about this today, because I remembered this post. I think I have an example that illustrates that this isn't always true. About 10 years ago when I was buying gold, it was about $280/oz. To buy a small new car at that time probably would have cost between 40-50 oz of gold. Now, the same class of car would probably cost you only about 15 oz of gold. So, at least for cars, the "gold always has the same value" theory doesn't hold.


One oz has always bought me one good slaughtered beef.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:12 pm 
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jwwoods32 wrote:
Even though there are some outliers, especially in turbulent times as you pointed out, generally I think gold does hold about the same relative value.
Gold better not go back to $280 - my wife will kill me :oops:


Kill You? Get a loan and buy more!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:44 pm 
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Quote:
Kill You? Get a loan and buy more!!!!


yes and then when it drops back down to 1970's levels you won't have to worry about getting killed because you'll already be dead....


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:26 pm 
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As with anything, a good investment depends upon the difference between the buy and sell price. I wouldn't touch numismatics, even with your wallet.

Anybody who says that 'gold's value remains constant' is selling something. Oh, yah--they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:44 pm 
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Does the 'price of gold' generally lead the purchasing power of the dollar? That is, does the price of gold fluctuate (due to inflation) before prices for goods and services can be adjusted? If so, then depending on the lag time and depending on the rate or changing rate of inflation, gold might actually be a good investment.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:32 am 
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If i were to trade in bullion for numis, i would lose so much liquidity that i would be just as tempted to go for art or collectables in general. They would be even more difficult to trade, but more fun to have around than just numis.

On the other hand, numis can be even more portable than all of the above, but if portability was the highest priority, gems would fill the bill at least as well as coins...


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:08 pm 
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Woody wrote:
i think I know what you're getting at - if you have gold and the price spikes and prices of goods, like food, haven't risen, yes, you've seen a gain in value


I wonder if there is anyone in this forum that would rather trade physical metal vs an ETF over such a short period of time...from my perspective all of my Gold/Platinum/Silver purchases have been long term 5-10yr...


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 Post subject: Re: Gold is not a good investment
PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:10 pm 
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horsewhspers wrote:
Woody wrote:
i think I know what you're getting at - if you have gold and the price spikes and prices of goods, like food, haven't risen, yes, you've seen a gain in value


I wonder if there is anyone in this forum that would rather trade physical metal vs an ETF over such a short period of time...from my perspective all of my Gold/Platinum/Silver purchases have been long term 5-10yr...



No problem in the short term...I am a bear at heart, but not afraid of short term profit if it fits at the time.


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